SG Hiscock & Company

As a multi-award-winning boutique fund manager, SG Hiscock has a proven record of providing exceptional service and unrivalled insights to our clients.

OUR PROCESS

We believe in buying great companies at good prices. We are firm believers in co-investment, demonstrated by our significant investment in our own funds. Our confidence in our investment approach means we always seed new funds with our own money. We have made the decision to cap our Funds Under Management at modest levels, to ensure that the funds retain greater flexibility to generate strong investment returns across varying market conditions. In order to identify the best opportunities for our clients, we undertake a broad fundamental research program which incorporates an extensive company visitation schedule. With an experienced team of investment professionals, our approach to analysing companies is designed to ensure no stone remains unturned.

We engage with a hand-picked team of external research providers to complement our insights in the macroeconomic landscape (both locally and abroad) and general investment trends. We also have an exclusive joint advisory arrangement with one of the world’s largest commercial real estate investors; LaSalle Investment Management Securities, LLC is a subsidiary of global property giant, Jones Lang LaSalle. This provides our property team access to LaSalle’s research capabilities.

OUR ENVIRONMENTAL, SOCIAL AND GOVERNANCE POLICY

SG Hiscock & Company has a formal board-endorsed environmental, social and governance (ESG) policy. This incorporates the key principles of the Australian Council of Superannuation Investors, as well as the framework provided under the United Nations’ Principles for Responsible Investment. SG Hiscock & Company is a responsible investor and we take an active approach to integrating ESG considerations into our investment decision-making process. We believe that the effective governance and management of business risks has a direct impact on a company’s intrinsic value over the long term and helps to reduce investment risk. In order to identify the best opportunities for our clients, we undertake a broad fundamental research program which incorporates an extensive company visitation schedule. With an experienced team of investment professionals, our approach to analysing companies is designed to ensure no stone remains unturned.

We engage with a hand-picked team of external research providers to complement our insights in the macroeconomic landscape (both locally and abroad) and general investment trends. We also have an exclusive joint advisory arrangement with one of the world’s largest commercial real estate investors; LaSalle Investment Management Securities, LLC is a subsidiary of global property giant, Jones Lang LaSalle. This provides our property team access to LaSalle’s research capabilities.
Staff / Employees 25
Portfolio Manager Average Experience 22 years
Recent Awards Australian Equities Winner, 2018 IMAP Managed Account Awards
our team
  • Stephen Hiscock View Profile
    Managing Director
  • Tim Gough View Profile
    Portfolio Manager
  • Hamish Tadgell View Profile
    Portfolio Manager and Head of Research
  • Andrew Gillies View Profile
    Analyst
  • Sarah Eager View Profile
    Marketing Coordinator
Investment Models
Investment Objective
The objective of the portfolio is to provide an actively managed diversified portfolio for an investor with a need for a stable level of income and who is not comfortable with high levels of fluctuation in the value of their portfolio. The portfolio is also designed to deliver a modest amount of growth to provide some protection against inflation with an overall return objective of CPI plus 1-2%. In order to achieve this objective the portfolio will have long term allocation to defensive or income assets in the range of 70% and 30% to growth assets.
Typical Investor
The typical investor is more risk averse and sustainable income levels are considered the primary objective. The investor is comfortable with a higher weighting to income producing assets such as fixed interest investments and only a small allocation to equities among other asset classes. The portfolio would suit investors in the latter stage of their life where growth is a secondary consideration or investors uncomfortable with market fluctuations and where short term preservation of capital is of high importance.
Investment Strategy and Approach
Actively managed portfolio with a Strategic Asset Allocation of 70% to income assets and 30% to growth assets.
Minimum Investment Amount
$25,000

Model Composition

Allocation as at April 2019

    Allocation & Fees
    Enter an investment amount then scroll down to see an indicative example of the portfolio you would own, as well as the associated fee.
    SG Hiscock Defensive Income
    This example is an out-of-date breakdown of this model and should not be taken to represent our current thinking or composition
    Cash 3.85% $385,000
    Code Security name Weighting % Amount
    CASH Cash 3.85% $3,850
    Cash 3.85% $385,000
    Australian Shares 13.18% $13,181
    Code Security name Weighting % Amount
    WOW Woolworths Grp 1.75% $1,752
    ANZ ANZ Banking Grp 1.82% $1,823
    TCL Transurban Grp 1.59% $1,593
    BHP BHP 1.55% $1,549
    CBA Commonwealth Bank of Aust 1.91% $1,906
    SYD Sydney Airport 1.55% $1,552
    ORG Origin Energy 1.47% $1,467
    MQG Macq Grp 1.54% $1,538
    Australian Shares 13.18% $13,181
    International Shares 15.81% $15,810
    Code Security name Weighting % Amount
    FRT0009AU Franklin Global Growth Wholesale 7.98% $7,985
    WHT0044AU Capital Group Global Equity 7.83% $7,825
    International Shares 15.81% $15,810
    Australian Property 5.15% $5,149
    Code Security name Weighting % Amount
    ETL0119AU SGH Property Income 5.15% $5,149
    Australian Property 5.15% $5,149
    International Property 5.16% $5,159
    Code Security name Weighting % Amount
    ETL0005AU SGH LaSalle Global Listed Property Securities 5.16% $5,159
    International Property 5.16% $5,159
    Australian Fixed Interest 34.83% $3,483,000
    Code Security name Weighting % Amount
    ETL0015AU PIMCO Australian Bond Wholesale 10.94% $10,939
    MQGPB CAP NOTE 6-BBSW+5.15% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-21 3.17% $3,168
    NABPC CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+3.50% PERP NON-CUM RED T-07-23 3.23% $3,226
    CGFPA CNV PREF 3-BBSW+3.40% PERP SUB NON-CUM RED T-05-20 3.25% $3,254
    CBAPF CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+3.90% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-22 3.27% $3,271
    ANZPF CAP NOTE 6-BBSW+3.60% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-23 3.19% $3,191
    WBCPF CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+4.00% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-21 3.23% $3,234
    AMPPA CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+5.10% PERP NON-CUM RED T-12-21 4.55% $4,550
    Australian Fixed Interest 34.83% $3,483,000
    International Fixed Interest 17.04% $17,040
    Code Security name Weighting % Amount
    SBC0819AU UBS International Bond Fund 8.59% $8,589
    ETL0016AU PIMCO Diversified Fixed Interest W 8.45% $8,451
    International Fixed Interest 17.04% $17,040
    Alternatives 4.98% $4,984
    Code Security name Weighting % Amount
    OPT7628AU Arco Absolute Return Fund 4.98% $4,984
    Alternatives 4.98% $4,984
    100.00%
    Total
    $100,005
    Your monthly fee
    Model Portfolio Fee
    $ - per month
    +
    OpenInvest Fee
    FREE First 12 months
    =
    Monthly Fee
    $ -

    After the initial 12 month free period, the monthly OpenInvest fee will be $ - per month based on the investment amount entered.

    Model Portfolio Fee
    $ - per month
    This includes:

    SG Hiscock Fee, which covers their professional investment management expertise, intellectual property, research, analysis, modelling, asset allocation, and buying and selling decisions. This fee is deducted directly from your investment account.

    The Indirect Cost, which is an estimate of underlying charges of some of the holdings SG Hiscock may invest in, such as ETFs and managed funds. These charges are automatically deducted by those funds, rather than coming out of your account.

    OpenInvest Fee
    FREE for the first 12 monthsthen $ - per month

    The OpenInvest Fee covers all costs of administering your portfolio, including updating your portfolio - based on decisions of your chosen investment manager - and detailed reporting. This fee is deducted directly from your investment account.

    • No hidden fees or charges
    • We pay for brokerage
    • You keep all interest earned

    A Transaction Cost is an underlying charge levied by an ETF or managed fund when you buy into or sell out of a fund.

    The estimated initial transaction cost for the funds in this model portfolio on a $100000 investment is $ -.

    All fees and charges are inclusive of GST.

    Ready to Invest?

    Our single, simple fee covers administration and operations by OpenInvest, the services of your chosen investment manager, and any indirect costs.

    Investment Objective
    The objective is to provide an actively managed diversified portfolio for an investor who is comfortable with a mix of both income and growth, ideally an investor with a conservative approach to risk and a requirement for a moderate level of sustainable income. Exposure to growth assets should be aimed at providing protection for the real value of the portfolio in normal periods of inflation. The portfolio has a return objective of CPI +2-3%. In order to achieve this objective the portfolios long term asset allocation will be split approximately 50% to income and 50% to growth assets.
    Typical Investor
    The typical investor is comfortable with exposure to equities and fixed income and also requires a moderate yet sustainable level of income. The portfolio would suit investors looking to both grow the value of their portfolio modestly but also with a desire to see income generation to meet their needs.
    Investment Strategy and Approach
    Actively managed portfolio with a Strategic Asset Allocation of 50% to income assets and 50% to growth assets
    Minimum Investment Amount
    $25,000

    Model Composition

    Allocation as at April 2019

      Allocation & Fees
      Enter an investment amount then scroll down to see an indicative example of the portfolio you would own, as well as the associated fee.
      SG Hiscock Sustainable Income
      This example is an out-of-date breakdown of this model and should not be taken to represent our current thinking or composition
      Cash 2.02% $202,000
      Code Security name Weighting % Amount
      CASH Cash 2.02% $2,020
      Cash 2.02% $202,000
      Australian Shares 29.87% $2,987,000
      Code Security name Weighting % Amount
      MQG Macq Grp 1.22% $1,219
      WOW Woolworths Grp 1.11% $1,114
      NAB National Aust Bank 1.77% $1,775
      ORA Orora 0.97% $975
      ORG Origin Energy 1.01% $1,014
      QBE QBE Insurance Grp 1.10% $1,097
      RIO Rio Tinto 1.09% $1,090
      SCG Scentre Grp 1.05% $1,047
      SEK Seek 1.06% $1,062
      SYD Sydney Airport 1.07% $1,073
      TCL Transurban Grp 1.10% $1,102
      VVR Viva Energy Reit 1.06% $1,061
      WBC Westpac Banking 1.29% $1,289
      WES Wesfarmers 1.01% $1,007
      MMS McMillan Shakespr 1.06% $1,065
      JHX James Hardie Ind 1.21% $1,212
      WPL Woodside Pet 1.03% $1,034
      ANZ ANZ Banking Grp 1.38% $1,380
      ASX ASX 1.03% $1,033
      DOW Downer EDI 1.06% $1,056
      CSL CSL 1.52% $1,522
      CKF Collins Foods 1.10% $1,098
      BHP BHP 1.22% $1,224
      CAR Carsales.com 1.04% $1,040
      CBA Commonwealth Bank of Aust 2.31% $2,309
      Australian Shares 29.87% $2,987,000
      International Shares 20.75% $20,748
      Code Security name Weighting % Amount
      WHT0044AU Capital Group Global Equity 10.27% $10,269
      FRT0009AU Franklin Global Growth Wholesale 10.48% $10,479
      International Shares 20.75% $20,748
      Australian Property 4.05% $4,055
      Code Security name Weighting % Amount
      ETL0119AU SGH Property Income 4.05% $4,055
      Australian Property 4.05% $4,055
      International Property 4.06% $4,062
      Code Security name Weighting % Amount
      ETL0005AU SGH LaSalle Global Listed Property Securities 4.06% $4,062
      International Property 4.06% $4,062
      Australian Fixed Interest 24.47% $24,484
      Code Security name Weighting % Amount
      WBCPF CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+4.00% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-21 2.25% $2,254
      ANZPF CAP NOTE 6-BBSW+3.60% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-23 2.08% $2,084
      AMPPA CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+5.10% PERP NON-CUM RED T-12-21 3.19% $3,185
      CGFPA CNV PREF 3-BBSW+3.40% PERP SUB NON-CUM RED T-05-20 2.12% $2,119
      NABPC CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+3.50% PERP NON-CUM RED T-07-23 2.09% $2,093
      MQGPB CAP NOTE 6-BBSW+5.15% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-21 2.06% $2,061
      ETL0015AU PIMCO Australian Bond Wholesale 8.56% $8,564
      CBAPF CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+3.90% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-22 2.12% $2,123
      Australian Fixed Interest 24.47% $24,484
      International Fixed Interest 11.84% $11,838
      Code Security name Weighting % Amount
      ETL0016AU PIMCO Diversified Fixed Interest W 5.87% $5,871
      SBC0819AU UBS International Bond Fund 5.97% $5,967
      International Fixed Interest 11.84% $11,838
      Alternatives 2.94% $2,943
      Code Security name Weighting % Amount
      OPT7628AU Arco Absolute Return Fund 2.94% $2,943
      Alternatives 2.94% $2,943
      100.00%
      Total
      $100,047
      Your monthly fee
      Model Portfolio Fee
      $ - per month
      +
      OpenInvest Fee
      FREE First 12 months
      =
      Monthly Fee
      $ -

      After the initial 12 month free period, the monthly OpenInvest fee will be $ - per month based on the investment amount entered.

      Model Portfolio Fee
      $ - per month
      This includes:

      SG Hiscock Fee, which covers their professional investment management expertise, intellectual property, research, analysis, modelling, asset allocation, and buying and selling decisions. This fee is deducted directly from your investment account.

      The Indirect Cost, which is an estimate of underlying charges of some of the holdings SG Hiscock may invest in, such as ETFs and managed funds. These charges are automatically deducted by those funds, rather than coming out of your account.

      OpenInvest Fee
      FREE for the first 12 monthsthen $ - per month

      The OpenInvest Fee covers all costs of administering your portfolio, including updating your portfolio - based on decisions of your chosen investment manager - and detailed reporting. This fee is deducted directly from your investment account.

      • No hidden fees or charges
      • We pay for brokerage
      • You keep all interest earned

      A Transaction Cost is an underlying charge levied by an ETF or managed fund when you buy into or sell out of a fund.

      The estimated initial transaction cost for the funds in this model portfolio on a $100000 investment is $ -.

      All fees and charges are inclusive of GST.

      Ready to Invest?

      Our single, simple fee covers administration and operations by OpenInvest, the services of your chosen investment manager, and any indirect costs.

      Investment Objective
      The objective is to provide an actively managed diversified portfolio for an investor who is looking for a portfolio that will provide growth over the longer term as the primary objective but will also provide a modest level of protection in a falling market. Income is of a secondary consideration and a function of asset allocation. In order to achieve this objective the portfolio's long-term asset allocation will be split approximately 70% to growth and 30% to income assets with a total return objective of CPI +3-4%. Exposure to growth assets will be diversified across both domestic and international equity and property asset classes.
      Typical Investor
      The typical investor is focused on growing the total value of their portfolio through a combination of both capital growth and income. The portfolio would suit investors with a perpetual or long time horizon and with a higher degree of tolerance for risk and fluctuation in portfolio value. Income is most likely a secondary consideration.
      Investment Strategy and Approach
      Actively managed portfolio with a Strategic Asset Allocation of 70% to growth assets and 30% to income assets.
      Minimum Investment Amount
      $25,000

      Model Composition

      Allocation as at April 2019

        Allocation & Fees
        Enter an investment amount then scroll down to see an indicative example of the portfolio you would own, as well as the associated fee.
        SG Hiscock Robust Growth
        This example is an out-of-date breakdown of this model and should not be taken to represent our current thinking or composition
        Cash 2.93% $293,000
        Code Security name Weighting % Amount
        CASH Cash 2.93% $2,930
        Cash 2.93% $293,000
        Australian Shares 39.67% $3,967,000
        Code Security name Weighting % Amount
        MQG Macq Grp 1.21% $1,209
        ORA Orora 1.11% $1,106
        ORG Origin Energy 1.15% $1,150
        QBE QBE Insurance Grp 1.24% $1,244
        RIO Rio Tinto 1.65% $1,652
        SCG Scentre Grp 1.58% $1,583
        SEK Seek 1.20% $1,204
        SUN Suncorp Grp 1.18% $1,176
        SYD Sydney Airport 1.22% $1,217
        TCL Transurban Grp 1.25% $1,250
        VVR Viva Energy Reit 1.20% $1,203
        WBC Westpac Banking 1.89% $1,894
        WES Wesfarmers 1.14% $1,142
        WOR WorleyParsons 1.14% $1,135
        NAB National Aust Bank 1.57% $1,566
        WOW Woolworths Grp 1.27% $1,265
        WPL Woodside Pet 1.17% $1,172
        JHX James Hardie Ind 1.20% $1,203
        ANZ ANZ Banking Grp 1.82% $1,825
        BHP BHP 2.43% $2,432
        CAR Carsales.com 1.18% $1,180
        CBA Commonwealth Bank of Aust 3.05% $3,054
        CKF Collins Foods 1.25% $1,246
        MMS McMillan Shakespr 1.21% $1,208
        DOW Downer EDI 1.20% $1,197
        CSL CSL 2.02% $2,022
        ETL0118AU SGH Emerging Companies 2.14% $2,137
        Australian Shares 39.67% $3,967,000
        International Shares 30.75% $30,746
        Code Security name Weighting % Amount
        FRT0009AU Franklin Global Growth Wholesale 12.48% $12,479
        IVV iShares S&P 500 ETF 6.04% $6,039
        WHT0044AU Capital Group Global Equity 12.23% $12,229
        International Shares 30.75% $30,746
        Australian Property 8.05% $8,047
        Code Security name Weighting % Amount
        ETL0119AU SGH Property Income 8.05% $8,047
        Australian Property 8.05% $8,047
        International Property 3.02% $3,023
        Code Security name Weighting % Amount
        ETL0005AU SGH LaSalle Global Listed Property Securities 3.02% $3,023
        International Property 3.02% $3,023
        Australian Fixed Interest 12.62% $12,619
        Code Security name Weighting % Amount
        CGFPA CNV PREF 3-BBSW+3.40% PERP SUB NON-CUM RED T-05-20 2.93% $2,930
        ANZPF CAP NOTE 6-BBSW+3.60% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-23 2.88% $2,881
        MQGPB CAP NOTE 6-BBSW+5.15% PERP NON-CUM RED T-03-21 2.86% $2,858
        AMPPA CAP NOTE 3-BBSW+5.10% PERP NON-CUM RED T-12-21 3.95% $3,950
        Australian Fixed Interest 12.62% $12,619
        International Fixed Interest 2.96% $2,961
        Code Security name Weighting % Amount
        SBC0819AU UBS International Bond Fund 2.96% $2,961
        International Fixed Interest 2.96% $2,961
        100.00%
        Total
        $99,999
        Your monthly fee
        Model Portfolio Fee
        $ - per month
        +
        OpenInvest Fee
        FREE First 12 months
        =
        Monthly Fee
        $ -

        After the initial 12 month free period, the monthly OpenInvest fee will be $ - per month based on the investment amount entered.

        Model Portfolio Fee
        $ - per month
        This includes:

        SG Hiscock Fee, which covers their professional investment management expertise, intellectual property, research, analysis, modelling, asset allocation, and buying and selling decisions. This fee is deducted directly from your investment account.

        The Indirect Cost, which is an estimate of underlying charges of some of the holdings SG Hiscock may invest in, such as ETFs and managed funds. These charges are automatically deducted by those funds, rather than coming out of your account.

        OpenInvest Fee
        FREE for the first 12 monthsthen $ - per month

        The OpenInvest Fee covers all costs of administering your portfolio, including updating your portfolio - based on decisions of your chosen investment manager - and detailed reporting. This fee is deducted directly from your investment account.

        • No hidden fees or charges
        • We pay for brokerage
        • You keep all interest earned

        A Transaction Cost is an underlying charge levied by an ETF or managed fund when you buy into or sell out of a fund.

        The estimated initial transaction cost for the funds in this model portfolio on a $100000 investment is $ -.

        All fees and charges are inclusive of GST.

        Ready to Invest?

        Our single, simple fee covers administration and operations by OpenInvest, the services of your chosen investment manager, and any indirect costs.

        Investment Objective
        The objective is to provide an actively managed portfolio for an investor with a primary objective of growing the value of their investments and a high tolerance for market fluctuations and risk. In order to achieve this objective the portfolios long term asset allocation will be split approximately 90% to growth and 10% to income assets. This portfolio has a target return of CPI +4-6%. Exposure to growth assets will be diversified across both domestic and international equity and property asset classes.
        Typical Investor
        The typical investor is focused on growing the total value of their portfolio through exposure to growth assets classes such as equities and property. The portfolio would suit investors with a perpetual or long time horizon and with a high understanding and comfort level for risk and fluctuation in portfolio value.
        Investment Strategy and Approach
        Actively managed portfolio with a Strategic Asset Allocation of 90% to growth assets and 10% to income assets.
        Minimum Investment Amount
        $25,000

        Model Composition

        Allocation as at April 2019

          Allocation & Fees
          Enter an investment amount then scroll down to see an indicative example of the portfolio you would own, as well as the associated fee.
          SG Hiscock Maximum Growth
          This example is an out-of-date breakdown of this model and should not be taken to represent our current thinking or composition
          Cash 2.92% $292,000
          Code Security name Weighting % Amount
          CASH Cash 2.92% $2,920
          Cash 2.92% $292,000
          Australian Shares 49.28% $4,928,000
          Code Security name Weighting % Amount
          ANZ ANZ Banking Grp 2.27% $2,266
          WOR WorleyParsons 1.41% $1,408
          WES Wesfarmers 1.42% $1,418
          WBC Westpac Banking 1.88% $1,881
          TCL Transurban Grp 1.55% $1,550
          SYD Sydney Airport 1.51% $1,510
          SUN Suncorp Grp 1.46% $1,460
          SEK Seek 1.49% $1,494
          SCG Scentre Grp 1.96% $1,964
          RIO Rio Tinto 2.05% $2,051
          QBE QBE Insurance Grp 1.54% $1,544
          ORG Origin Energy 1.43% $1,428
          ORA Orora 1.37% $1,372
          WOW Woolworths Grp 1.57% $1,568
          NAB National Aust Bank 1.94% $1,943
          MMS McMillan Shakespr 1.50% $1,499
          JHX James Hardie Ind 1.49% $1,493
          ETL0118AU SGH Emerging Companies 3.71% $3,712
          DOW Downer EDI 1.49% $1,486
          CSL CSL 2.98% $2,977
          CKF Collins Foods 1.55% $1,546
          CBA Commonwealth Bank of Aust 3.79% $3,787
          CAR Carsales.com 1.46% $1,464
          BHP BHP 3.02% $3,017
          MQG Macq Grp 1.99% $1,991
          WPL Woodside Pet 1.45% $1,453
          Australian Shares 49.28% $4,928,000
          International Shares 42.81% $42,808
          Code Security name Weighting % Amount
          IVV iShares S&P 500 ETF 6.02% $6,019
          FRT0009AU Franklin Global Growth Wholesale 18.58% $18,581
          WHT0044AU Capital Group Global Equity 18.21% $18,208
          International Shares 42.81% $42,808
          Australian Property 4.99% $4,992
          Code Security name Weighting % Amount
          ETL0119AU SGH Property Income 4.99% $4,992
          Australian Property 4.99% $4,992
          100.00%
          Total
          $100,002
          Your monthly fee
          Model Portfolio Fee
          $ - per month
          +
          OpenInvest Fee
          FREE First 12 months
          =
          Monthly Fee
          $ -

          After the initial 12 month free period, the monthly OpenInvest fee will be $ - per month based on the investment amount entered.

          Model Portfolio Fee
          $ - per month
          This includes:

          SG Hiscock Fee, which covers their professional investment management expertise, intellectual property, research, analysis, modelling, asset allocation, and buying and selling decisions. This fee is deducted directly from your investment account.

          The Indirect Cost, which is an estimate of underlying charges of some of the holdings SG Hiscock may invest in, such as ETFs and managed funds. These charges are automatically deducted by those funds, rather than coming out of your account.

          OpenInvest Fee
          FREE for the first 12 monthsthen $ - per month

          The OpenInvest Fee covers all costs of administering your portfolio, including updating your portfolio - based on decisions of your chosen investment manager - and detailed reporting. This fee is deducted directly from your investment account.

          • No hidden fees or charges
          • We pay for brokerage
          • You keep all interest earned

          A Transaction Cost is an underlying charge levied by an ETF or managed fund when you buy into or sell out of a fund.

          The estimated initial transaction cost for the funds in this model portfolio on a $100000 investment is $ -.

          All fees and charges are inclusive of GST.

          Ready to Invest?

          Our single, simple fee covers administration and operations by OpenInvest, the services of your chosen investment manager, and any indirect costs.